God ain't talkin' no shit.

[jackshoegazer]

I saw one of those annoying God Hates Fags signs.  It had a Biblical footnote, Romans 9:13.  I decided to see where exactly in the Bible this fool claims God declared his hatred for homosexuals.  Let me read to you Romans 9:13:

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

So that's God talking there.  And boy, he *hates* Esau.  Man, Esau must have totally fucked a bunch of dudes!  Uh, no.  There is nothing in the story of Esau about homosexuality at all.  Not even the slightest whiff of man-on-man action.  Esau married women and had children.  Esau was tricked by Jacob into giving up his birthright as the eldest son for some lentils.  He was kind of sad, not too bright, and apparently pretty hungry.

Therefore, can anyone here explain to me why that Biblical passage was used in a message of hate, how that passage and the story of Esau has anything to do with hating homosexuality?  Yeah, didn't think so.

Comments

[atomic-goo.livejournal.com]

That is so weird that you posted this because I JUST found out that Westboro Baptist Church is coming to UVa to picket our performance of The Laramie Project this Friday. What a collective piece of shit.

[jackshoegazer.livejournal.com]

It seriously makes me wonder if these people have ever picked up a Bible.

(I keep hearing Inigo Montoya saying, "That book - I do not think it means what you think it means.")

[explodingalice.livejournal.com]

a) I wish I could be there to see it, I've heard good things,

and

b) barring that, I wish I could be there to glower at them or throw rotten fruit at them or something.

[atomic-goo.livejournal.com]

I've seen it once before back home (ironically in Lynchburg, VA, home of Liberty University/Jerry Falwell, haha), and it was excellent. I'm looking forward to another rendition of it. I will definitely be there silently watching the idiots--apparently if you touch them or try to argue with them one on one, they'll try to sue you because a lot of them are lawyers. How sad.

[hellocthulhu.livejournal.com]

I know there was some story back in the early books about some dude's sons walking in on him passed out drunk and naked and deciding to bugger him for shits and giggles, but that's about the closest I can get.

Maybe Esau is just a really gay name?

[castleclear.livejournal.com]

That's Noah and his sons (after the flood), when Noah got drunk and passed out and his son(s) saw him passed out and naked. I don't believe they (he?) sexually assaulted his/their father (Noah). The Old Testament sin, as I understand it, was seeing one's father, the patriarchal elder, in a disrespectful/embarrassing way, even though it was Noah's fault he was drunk, passed out and naked.

[hellocthulhu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Noah, that's who it was. You're probably right about the lack of buggery, but I like my version better.

[pretzelcoatl.livejournal.com]

Blaaaaaaargh.

The good news is that since the news about Prop. 8 and the anger resulting from it is also motivating less crazy Christians to speak out even more against homophobia and for gay marriage. Let's hope this continues.

[castleclear.livejournal.com]

There are a number of left-wing Christians who, for example, are in favor of socialism. Recently, a group wrote an open letter to other (as in right-wing) Christians saying let's ignore abortion for the moment in favor on concentrating on ending poverty. A number of Christians support gay marriage. A number of Christians are gay. It's the right-wing zealots we have to watch out for.

[jackshoegazer.livejournal.com]

That's why I love the word "sombunal" when talking about a group, which was coined to mead some-but-not-all, because it's much more accurate. For instance, it's better to say sombunal Christians are hateful bigots, rather than using merely Christians which is inaccurate and leads to hurt feelings and the like.

Re: sombunal Christians

[castleclear.livejournal.com]

Now that's interesting terminology. "Sleep-walking" certainly describes those who don't evaluate using critical thinking. I like it! And your valid points about accuracy and hurt feelings, hence improved communication. Non-somnabulistic Christian friends know the score and are often allies as well as being well-developed people. I see that I'm confusing terms, that "sombunal/sombunall" means "some but not all" as coined by Robert Anton Wilson as per http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sombunall

[jrfrench.livejournal.com]

Remember that these people are by definition irrational. Expecting them to have a coherent connection between things they cite is asking too much. Assume insanity, and it all makes sense.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

The passage refers to Jacob being loved, and Esau being hated. Jacob is saved by God's love, but Esau is bad, and thus God hates him (he is beyond redemption). I think the passage is used to point out the separation between the "elect" and those who aren't worthy (which includes, according to the sign-holders, gay people).

[spatz0r.livejournal.com]

i think that's the right idea, considering the westboro baptist church is just a cult of personality populated by like 70-100 of the extended family of fred phelps.
taking a calvinist viewpoint as far as it can go, he has essentially narrowed his stream of the exempt to those who hold him as a messianic figure. those are the elect and everyone else but ESPECIALLY gay people is not.

[hello-momma.livejournal.com]

What's sad is that the head of that church was a civil rights attorney. Until he was disbarred. I saw a documentary on them and it seemed like most of the church were family members.

[dakinigrl.livejournal.com]

lentils are the new butt sex.

[fireabrokengun.livejournal.com]

I'm from Topeka (where they're from) and it's horrible. They have small children holding those signs. They put up pictures of a "sodomizing santa" That quote is odd to me because I thought that God didn't hate anyone and that he's all loving and all knowning? It's horrible to see anyone spew so much hatred for something that's so natural and a part of life for all and always has been.

[castleclear.livejournal.com]

If you get out your Old Testament, particularly in the first several books, you'll find that Ghod is quite a hater. I'm sorry some Christians in Topeka feel that hatred is too a family value. *sigh* What wonderful Christians! So Christ-like!

[protodisco.livejournal.com]

They just assume you haven't read it and won't bother to look it up. I have thought many times of putting together a gang and busting up their hood.

The one who has been bothering me more recently is Craig Winn of www.prophetofdoom.com if you want some completely bigoted decontextualized lack of communication straight up ignorant hate.

[weishaupt.livejournal.com]

Esau was a hairy man. I always assumed it was about God's hatred of Yetis.

[katachthonios.livejournal.com]

And the Sasquaches. Don't forget the Sasquaches.

And big, hairy gay men generally called
"bears" maybe?


(And yet with all this ultra-fine interpretation of Scripture, so many of the women at WBC wear pants in direct violation of DEU 20:22)

[labelle77.livejournal.com]

Can't explain it, but it did make me think of a post I saw the other day when someone, responding to another poster's long, nonsensical spewage of bible-thumping, said "sorry, a bible verse does not count as evidence. citing the bible is worse than citing wikipedia." and i laughed and laughed.

Over the past couple of days I've happened to run in to a lot of vocal hate-mongers... hating the poor, the gay, anyone not rich, white or privileged.... it makes me want to run out and smother everyone with love for who they are. Well. maybe everyone except for the rich white and privileged. they seem to get enough.

[nearlymay.livejournal.com]

"citing the bible is worse than citing wikipedia." *snort*

[besina-sartor.livejournal.com]

methinks that is gonna make for a great tag line :)

[nightlikeariver.livejournal.com]

those people are terminally stupid. rather than citing a scripture that's actually about being "sexually immoral" (which is, of course, depending on translation; technically speaking, anything outside of missionary in a married relationship is immoral, ha), they use some verse that doesn't have any context in their argument at hand. oy vey. freaks.

[besina-sartor.livejournal.com]

...but it's perfectly pious to offer your virgin daughters up for gang rape or to get your father drunk and sex him up to impregnate oneself... christians are weird.

[nightlikeariver.livejournal.com]

oh, but that's the OLD TESTAMENT, don't you know, everything is only applicable to the NEW TESTAMENT now...because the new testament is so much more forgiving and loving than the old...

[jackshoegazer.livejournal.com]

Hey, Jesus said, "Dudes, the OT is crap now! I am the new sheriff in this town!"

Too bad sombunal Christians only use this selectively. It's cool to use Deuteronomy when they want to bad some immoral behavior, but oh, Jesus saved us from all that OT stuff when it's inconvenient for them, like explaining all the murder and war.

[nightlikeariver.livejournal.com]

exaaaaactly.

[lucidpseudogod.livejournal.com]

God does hate fags, I keep telling people to join the Church of Satan
but noooooo they just won't listen

Satan loves EVERYONE! even fags, and dykes, and especially nuns
I just don't get it

why don't homosexuals protest with

Satan will kill your God and assrape his corpse?
that seems logical and might be a nice protest theme

or, Satan thinks God has a nice ass
and a purty mouth?

I keep tellin ya if you fight for dirty causes
you have to fight dirty to win

-thou shalt not lay with a man as you do with a woman-

okay, so when God is busy helping his 'chosen' people
the jews, and like, bending over tying their shoes
for them or something

then all the homos should summon satan and get im in the end!!

[besina-sartor.livejournal.com]

"thou shalt not lay with a man as you do with a woman"

Ok, well, that in some instances, is just common sense as men don't have vaginas. But it also may be construed just to mean "don't bugger your women -- just the men."

Re: Leviticus

[castleclear.livejournal.com]

The cultural laws in Leviticus, wherein eating shellfish is an "abomination", cooking meat with milk is an "abomination", wearing clothing made from different fabric (e.g., a cotton shirt and wool pants) is an "abomination", I'm told was an effort to preserve cultural integrity among the ancient Jewish population, an effort to resist assimilation into the dominant non-Jewish culture of where they were living.